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Post by Flatsrunner on May 14, 2023 21:21:12 GMT -5
just on the news about possible new rule changes for piers, everyone will have to take a course concerning the pelcans issue,2 rod limit and no sabki rigs ,FOP said they are looking forward to working with the anglers, more Info and a vote possibly a the next FWC meeting.
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Post by seabird on May 15, 2023 18:38:27 GMT -5
I read that the sabiki ban applies during the winter months...not year round.
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Post by fishfinderbill on May 15, 2023 20:10:59 GMT -5
Is there anywhere we can read about the rule changes?
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Post by fishsci on May 15, 2023 20:48:17 GMT -5
just on the news about possible new rule changes for piers, everyone will have to take a course concerning the pelcans issue,2 rod limit and no sabki rigs ,FOP said they are looking forward to working with the anglers, more Info and a vote possibly a the next FWC meeting. Where on the news? This is too imiportant for just a vague post. Please clarify.... |
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Post by tears143 on May 15, 2023 20:59:52 GMT -5
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Post by Flatsrunner on May 16, 2023 7:18:05 GMT -5
Single hooks on all rigs? Closure of almost half of the SSP to sabiki rigs. That's going too far.
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Post by seabird on May 16, 2023 9:01:12 GMT -5
Single hooks on all rigs? Closure of almost half of the SSP to sabiki rigs. That's going too far. I agree. The sabiki is one of my go to lures. |
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Post by silverspoon on May 16, 2023 9:46:23 GMT -5
Approve Skyway Pier proposed rules for advertising:
Annual education requirement
Use of following gear prohibited from Nov. – March each year:
▫ Hook and line gear with more than one hook attached (e.g., sabiki rig,
chicken rig, topwater plug)
▫ Any multiple hook (e.g., treble hook)
Limit use to no more than two sets of hook and line fishing gear
Prohibit use of sabiki rigs year-round within a portion of South Skyway Pier
Review regulations 2 years after implementation
If approved, staff will continue gathering
feedback and return for a final hearing at
a future Commission meeting
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Post by silverspoon on May 16, 2023 9:48:42 GMT -5
I still believe a possible solution to the sabiki rig is removing the barbs, next time I'm out there i will try using one with no barbs to see if it's still possible to bring in live bait.
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Post by fishsci on May 16, 2023 9:50:40 GMT -5
Thank yoiu for your post. However, the original post on this thread said there was something "just on the news." Your link is about 4 months old. So what is the news? |
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Post by tesseract on May 18, 2023 12:03:30 GMT -5
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Post by Flatsrunner on May 18, 2023 12:36:46 GMT -5
Interesting that FOP was saying they are no longer pushing for a ban on certain rigs and emphasize they've never advocated for shutting down the pier. Was is Naples or Ft. DeSoto pier that has a partial closure over these same issues?
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Post by seabird on May 18, 2023 15:44:28 GMT -5
Interesting that FOP was saying they are no longer pushing for a ban on certain rigs and emphasize they've never advocated for shutting down the pier. Was is Naples or Ft. DeSoto pier that has a partial closure over these same issues? Part of the Gulf pier at Ft Desoto was closed. Not sure about now as I have not been there for many months. |
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Post by Mackerelman on May 18, 2023 17:58:55 GMT -5
Interesting that FOP was saying they are no longer pushing for a ban on certain rigs and emphasize they've never advocated for shutting down the pier. Was is Naples or Ft. DeSoto pier that has a partial closure over these same issues? The FOP People got in a lot of trouble blaming the Anglers out there. They were strictly warned by the FWC about there Lies. In the beginning the FOP were trying to shout down the Piers. I know this information 1st hand. They shut down part of the Fort Desoto Pier. Several of the Piers south of us like in Naples & Fort Myers got their Piers torn up & some washed away after Hurricane Ian last year. I do know that the Bokeelia Fishing Pier near Fort Myers was Totally Destroyed by Ian. They are now rebuilding it. bokeeliafishingpier.com/If NavyGMC chimes in, maybe He can give us an update from the Naples Pier. |
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Post by fishsci on May 18, 2023 18:03:27 GMT -5
Given that nobody has been able to provide any substantive information, other than a couple of vague, undocumented so-called news reports, I finally have been able to search out the unstated source of those reports. Those inaccurate reports are based on a May 5 letter from the US Fish and Wildlife Service to the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD -- non-governmental group) responding the CBD's letter of Decenmber 15, 2022. s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/s3-wagtail.biolgicaldiversity.org/documents/FWS_Response_-_078084_Pelican_Issue_at_Sunshine_Skyway_State_Park_USFWS_Response_Lette.pdf (for some reason the links do not paste as links --my keyboard haviung problems, so you have to cut and paste them into your browser}The news of that letter came from a press release from the CBD dated May 8, 2023. biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/federal-officials-weigh-in-on-protecting-coastal-birds-at-florida-state-park-2023-05-08/The December 15 letter from CBD can be seen at www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/birds/pdfs/2022-12-15--Letter-Requesting-MBTA-Enforcement-at-Sunshine-Skyway-Fishing-Pier-State-Park.pdfThe recent letter from USFWS was very non-committal and essentially only said that "The Service remains committed to exploring options with others to find a resolution." So from all of that, it looks like everything is all back to the FWC letter of Feb. 21. myfwc.com/media/31003/skywaypierpresentation.pdf Thus, nothing new has been decided.That so-called news is inaccurate. The Commission's letter says that a final rule will be reviewed at a future meeting. The next scheduled meeting will be July 19-20. No agenda has been posted for that meeting, so there is no way to know if the pelican/Skyway rule will be finalized at that time. If anyone has any more real information, it is essential that you post it here. So far, it looks like none of those posting about the pelican rules has a good grip on what is going on. And and from what has been posted here, there has been no organized effort to speak for Skyway fishermen except a few individuals who submitted comments when requested by the Commission. None of those seemed compelling or even persuasive. Old complaints about feeding are meaningless, as feeding is already being prohibited. Attacks on FOP only make the attacker look bad. All of these together just will not cut it when compared to a large organized environmental group like CBD and its allied national groups. If there is to be a fair outcome, much more is needed to protect the interests of Skyway fishermen fairly, while at the same time being conscientious about reducing seabird deaths. I have two, I think reasonable, points that should be made to the Commision before their meeting. 1) The severity of the problem is being overstated, because yes, it is almost surely larger at the Skyway tha at anyt other place....but that is because there are so many fishermen using the piers. A fair comparison should be on a per fisherman basis. 2) I think this is the most important and perhaps could be the most effective point. Severe restrictions should not be instituted until and unless the major action, in terms of reducing pelican/seabird deaths is taken. That action is demolition of the east old Skyway lanes. If there was to be no landing and resting place for the hundreds of birds that land there, bird activity would be greatly reduced because they would have to fly a couple miles or more between landing places on the shore and out to the mid to farthest end of the pier. I have found that FDOT has the responsibility of maintaining the structures. That should include demolishing the parts that are used only bit seabirds and thus put them where their interaction with fishing gear is most severe. FDOT was able to take out miles of the old Skyway roadway, and probably could easily remove all of the east lane structures the same way. Again, removing the landing/resting areas almost surely would cut the problem in half. So that should be done first. Enough from me now. Much more is needed from this forum and other skyway fishermen.. |
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Post by tears143 on May 18, 2023 21:47:44 GMT -5
Given that nobody has been able to provide any substantive information, other than a couple of vague, undocumented so-called news reports, I finally have been able to search out the unstated source of those reports. Those inaccurate reports are based on a May 5 letter from the US Fish and Wildlife Service to the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD -- non-governmental group) responding the CBD's letter of Decenmber 15, 2022. s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/s3-wagtail.biolgicaldiversity.org/documents/FWS_Response_-_078084_Pelican_Issue_at_Sunshine_Skyway_State_Park_USFWS_Response_Lette.pdf (for some reason the links do not paste as links --my keyboard haviung problems, so you have to cut and paste them into your browser}The news of that letter came from a press release from the CBD dated May 8, 2023. biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/federal-officials-weigh-in-on-protecting-coastal-birds-at-florida-state-park-2023-05-08/The December 15 letter from CBD can be seen at www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/birds/pdfs/2022-12-15--Letter-Requesting-MBTA-Enforcement-at-Sunshine-Skyway-Fishing-Pier-State-Park.pdfThe recent letter from USFWS was very non-committal and essentially only said that "The Service remains committed to exploring options with others to find a resolution." So from all of that, it looks like everything is all back to the FWC letter of Feb. 21. myfwc.com/media/31003/skywaypierpresentation.pdf Thus, nothing new has been decided.That so-called news is inaccurate. The Commission's letter says that a final rule will be reviewed at a future meeting. The next scheduled meeting will be July 19-20. No agenda has been posted for that meeting, so there is no way to know if the pelican/Skyway rule will be finalized at that time. If anyone has any more real information, it is essential that you post it here. So far, it looks like none of those posting about the pelican rules has a good grip on what is going on. And and from what has been posted here, there has been no organized effort to speak for Skyway fishermen except a few individuals who submitted comments when requested by the Commission. None of those seemed compelling or even persuasive. Old complaints about feeding are meaningless, as feeding is already being prohibited. Attacks on FOP only make the attacker look bad. All of these together just will not cut it when compared to a large organized environmental group like CBD and its allied national groups. If there is to be a fair outcome, much more is needed to protect the interests of Skyway fishermen fairly, while at the same time being conscientious about reducing seabird deaths. I have two, I think reasonable, points that should be made to the Commision before their meeting. 1) The severity of the problem is being overstated, because yes, it is almost surely larger at the Skyway tha at anyt other place....but that is because there are so many fishermen using the piers. A fair comparison should be on a per fisherman basis. 2) I think this is the most important and perhaps could be the most effective point. Severe restrictions should not be instituted until and unless the major action, in terms of reducing pelican/seabird deaths is taken. That action is demolition of the east old Skyway lanes. If there was to be no landing and resting place for the hundreds of birds that land there, bird activity would be greatly reduced because they would have to fly a couple miles or more between landing places on the shore and out to the mid to farthest end of the pier. I have found that FDOT has the responsibility of maintaining the structures. That should include demolishing the parts that are used only bit seabirds and thus put them where their interaction with fishing gear is most severe. FDOT was able to take out miles of the old Skyway roadway, and probably could easily remove all of the east lane structures the same way. Again, removing the landing/resting areas almost surely would cut the problem in half. So that should be done first. Enough from me now. Much more is needed from this forum and other skyway fishermen.. If you read what I posted... The removal of the unused span is in the FWC stacks of what could be done to help the birds and fisherman. However... who is going to pay for the removal of the unused span? That's why it's a hard pill to swallow for that idea. |
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Post by dunedinfisher on May 19, 2023 8:06:03 GMT -5
Interesting that FOP was saying they are no longer pushing for a ban on certain rigs and emphasize they've never advocated for shutting down the pier. Was is Naples or Ft. DeSoto pier that has a partial closure over these same issues? Part of the Gulf pier at Ft Desoto was closed. Not sure about now as I have not been there for many months. The first tee of the Fort Desoto Gulf pier is open again. |
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Post by fishsci on May 19, 2023 18:14:08 GMT -5
Given that nobody has been able to provide any substantive information, other than a couple of vague, undocumented so-called news reports, I finally have been able to search out the unstated source of those reports. Those inaccurate reports are based on a May 5 letter from the US Fish and Wildlife Service to the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD -- non-governmental group) responding the CBD's letter of Decenmber 15, 2022. s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/s3-wagtail.biolgicaldiversity.org/documents/FWS_Response_-_078084_Pelican_Issue_at_Sunshine_Skyway_State_Park_USFWS_Response_Lette.pdf (for some reason the links do not paste as links --my keyboard haviung problems, so you have to cut and paste them into your browser}The news of that letter came from a press release from the CBD dated May 8, 2023. biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/federal-officials-weigh-in-on-protecting-coastal-birds-at-florida-state-park-2023-05-08/The December 15 letter from CBD can be seen at www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/birds/pdfs/2022-12-15--Letter-Requesting-MBTA-Enforcement-at-Sunshine-Skyway-Fishing-Pier-State-Park.pdfThe recent letter from USFWS was very non-committal and essentially only said that "The Service remains committed to exploring options with others to find a resolution." So from all of that, it looks like everything is all back to the FWC letter of Feb. 21. myfwc.com/media/31003/skywaypierpresentation.pdf Thus, nothing new has been decided.That so-called news is inaccurate. The Commission's letter says that a final rule will be reviewed at a future meeting. The next scheduled meeting will be July 19-20. No agenda has been posted for that meeting, so there is no way to know if the pelican/Skyway rule will be finalized at that time. If anyone has any more real information, it is essential that you post it here. So far, it looks like none of those posting about the pelican rules has a good grip on what is going on. And and from what has been posted here, there has been no organized effort to speak for Skyway fishermen except a few individuals who submitted comments when requested by the Commission. None of those seemed compelling or even persuasive. Old complaints about feeding are meaningless, as feeding is already being prohibited. Attacks on FOP only make the attacker look bad. All of these together just will not cut it when compared to a large organized environmental group like CBD and its allied national groups. If there is to be a fair outcome, much more is needed to protect the interests of Skyway fishermen fairly, while at the same time being conscientious about reducing seabird deaths. I have two, I think reasonable, points that should be made to the Commision before their meeting. 1) The severity of the problem is being overstated, because yes, it is almost surely larger at the Skyway tha at anyt other place....but that is because there are so many fishermen using the piers. A fair comparison should be on a per fisherman basis. 2) I think this is the most important and perhaps could be the most effective point. Severe restrictions should not be instituted until and unless the major action, in terms of reducing pelican/seabird deaths is taken. That action is demolition of the east old Skyway lanes. If there was to be no landing and resting place for the hundreds of birds that land there, bird activity would be greatly reduced because they would have to fly a couple miles or more between landing places on the shore and out to the mid to farthest end of the pier. I have found that FDOT has the responsibility of maintaining the structures. That should include demolishing the parts that are used only bit seabirds and thus put them where their interaction with fishing gear is most severe. FDOT was able to take out miles of the old Skyway roadway, and probably could easily remove all of the east lane structures the same way. Again, removing the landing/resting areas almost surely would cut the problem in half. So that should be done first. Enough from me now. Much more is needed from this forum and other skyway fishermen.. If you read what I posted... The removal of the unused span is in the FWC stacks of what could be done to help the birds and fisherman. However... who is going to pay for the removal of the unused span? That's why it's a hard pill to swallow for that idea. |
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Post by fishsci on May 19, 2023 18:36:53 GMT -5
Tears, Yes, removing the unused spans was mentioned in the Feb. 21 post, but seemed to be not given any thought or discussion. I appreciate your being reasonable and thoughtful about removing the spans where so many pelicans and seabirds land. Yes, it might be expensive, but maybe not all that expensive.
However, those spans (and the piers are "owned" by FDOT which has a huge budget. I see it as not different from a situation where FDOT makes a new road, or 4-lanes an old one, and it turns out that a large number of threatened species are being killed by the new or faster traffic. In that case, and this happens, FDOT is required to address the situation some way, typically by making a wildlife underpass, and installing fencing. They are required to do that by USFwS.
I see no difference in that and the old unused roadway sections. This is even something that Skyway fishermen could work with FOP and CBD to demand that FDOT use part of their existing budget to do to greatly reduce pelican deaths.
Another option would be to get some State senator or representative to put an item in the new State budget. Usually politicians are eager to be seen as doing good for the environment. Does anyone have some political connections that could do that?
However, we don't even know how expensive that might be. Look at all the barges and cranes building the new CC Causeway bridges. One of those rigs could probably do he job of removing the old spans in a day or so.
BTW, does anyone on this forum remember hoW almost all of the old Skyway spans were removed after the 1980 collapse? I suspect that big barges with cranes simply pulled out the pilings after the roadway was demolished. Please let us know.
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Post by Flatsrunner on May 19, 2023 19:05:25 GMT -5
those piling, at least part of them where dumped in the channel in about 50 ft of water, some off the SSP and some where placed in the channel to Miguel Bay in about 9 ft of water,'It's all on charts.
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Post by fishsci on May 19, 2023 20:33:33 GMT -5
those piling, at least part of them where dumped in the channel in about 50 ft of water, some off the SSP and some where placed in the channel to Miguel Bay in about 9 ft of water,'It's all on charts. Thanks, but how did they remove them??? That is the question -- not where they disposed of them??? The question is more about how hard it is to remove them and how expensive that would be. Not that FDOT should not be required to spend whatever it costs to remove them so that pelican problems are reduced. |
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Post by Mackerelman on May 20, 2023 18:30:14 GMT -5
those piling, at least part of them where dumped in the channel in about 50 ft of water, some off the SSP and some where placed in the channel to Miguel Bay in about 9 ft of water,'It's all on charts. Thanks, but how did they remove them??? That is the question -- not where they disposed of them??? The question is more about how hard it is to remove them and how expensive that would be. Not that FDOT should not be required to spend whatever it costs to remove them so that pelican problems are reduced. They removed them the Same Way that they put them in. They pump water down the side of the columns & they crane(Lift) them out. Then they put them on a Barge & they drop them where they are to be placed. I have done that in the past as a Building Contractor. That is how I know. Plus, I saw them do it on a couple of days while fishing on the SS Pier Span in the 80's before it became the South & North Skyway Fisng Piers. They had to remove the Old Columns & the Dropped Spans so other Boaters would not run into or over them. Most of the Broken Concrete parts were dropped on the West side of the SS Pier which made the Rock Piles. |
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Post by fishsci on May 20, 2023 20:09:20 GMT -5
Thanks, but how did they remove them??? That is the question -- not where they disposed of them??? The question is more about how hard it is to remove them and how expensive that would be. Not that FDOT should not be required to spend whatever it costs to remove them so that pelican problems are reduced. They removed them the Same Way that they put them in. They pump water down the side of the columns & they crane(Lift) them out. Then they put them on a Barge & they drop them where they are to be placed. I have done that in the past as a Building Contractor. That is how I know. Plus, I saw them do it on a couple of days while fishing on the SS Pier Span in the 80's before it became the South & North Skyway Fisng Piers. They had to remove the Old Columns & the Dropped Spans so other Boaters would not run into or over them. Most of the Broken Concrete parts were dropped on the West side of the SS Pier which made the Rock Piles. |
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Post by fishsci on May 20, 2023 20:13:14 GMT -5
Great that someone has first-hand recollection of the piling removal It makes sense that they would wash them out, so that there would be no pilings left for boats to run into. Just wondering, however...how did they remove the road bed above the pilings. Did the use explosives and let the concrete fall in place before pulling the pilings? Or did they use cranes to pull up the road bed and put it onto barges...or what???
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Post by Mackerelman on May 20, 2023 21:19:17 GMT -5
Great that someone has first-hand recollection of the piling removal It makes sense that they would wash them out, so that there would be no pilings left for boats to run into. Just wondering, however...how did they remove the road bed above the pilings. Did the use explosives and let the concrete fall in place before pulling the pilings? Or did they use cranes to pull up the road bed and put it onto barges...or what??? After they used explosives that You could hear for miles to drop the roadway, they had divers go down & hook them up to a crane line & the cranes pulled them up onto a barge. After on the barge, they cut them up. They then put them into place along both piers creating the rock Piles. I worked for about 3 months on one of those Barges back in the 80's. I have hooked onto pieces several times by the SS Pier while fishing in a boat. I & friends of mine have even brought up small pieces of rebar with concrete parts still attached thinking that We had a Big Gag Grouper. That is why many anglers get "rocked" fishing at the piers. They hook onto the rebar. |
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Post by Flatsrunner on May 20, 2023 21:25:08 GMT -5
Thanks Mackerelman for the info, there's photos on Wikipeda "Skyway Bridge Collapse" cost was $244 million for that demolition, 40 something years ago.
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Post by Mackerelman on May 20, 2023 22:38:58 GMT -5
Thanks Mackerelman for the info, there's photos on Wikipeda "Skyway Bridge Collapse" cost was $244 million for that demolition, 40 something years ago. The Bridge Collapse happened on May 9, 1980. A Very Sad Day. |
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Post by fishsci on May 21, 2023 15:48:02 GMT -5
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Post by Flatsrunner on May 21, 2023 17:34:04 GMT -5
Yes you are correct about the amount , it was $8.1 million.No information would result in you demanding information on every particular aspect ,GPS ,time and temperature. tides and weather.
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Post by fishsci on May 22, 2023 10:23:26 GMT -5
Yes you are correct about the amount , it was $8.1 million.No information would result in you demanding information on every particular aspect ,GPS ,time and temperature. tides and weather. I make no demands, except maybe for people to not misinform others in ways that are hurtful to others. In this case, saying that removing the old skyway cost over 20 times more that it actually cost, would have made some here think that removal of the old roadway and pilings was too expensive to be used as a way to reduce the pelican problem. The fact of the matter is that that $8.1 million was the cost to take out about 2.5 miles of 2 lanes (5 miles) of the old low bridge. Much of that probably was spent taking out the big high-rise bridge over the shipping channel. So as a rough estimate,something like $4 million was spent to remove those 5 miles, or $0.8 million (or less) per mile. There is about a mile of the east roadway, where so many pelicans come and rest, still remaining. Allowing for inflation, the cost to remove that mile would be very roughly $2 million. That is peanuts relative to the DOT budget, and in any event, DOT should be required by USFWS to remove something that is resulting in major damage to species of critical concern. If members of this forum were falsely led to believe that it would cost 20 x that much, they likely would think it was unrealistic to ask that the remaining old east lane be removed, and the burden would fall on fishermen to be forced to be subjected to severe restrictions in order to address the pelican problem. If you are referring to my past suggestions that members give as much detail as possible in their fishing reports, as a way to share information and help others -- ultimately what goes around comes around and even might help the reporting fisherman -- I demand nothing. I realize that there are some people who -- for selfish reasons, or just because they are the kind of mean-spirited person who doesn't like to help anyone -- get very uptight about such a suggestion, refuse to help, and even try to influence others to be similarly mean and selfish. |
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